Meeting at hatchery

[jimski2]

How has the drought affected the wild reproduction? The flow in many streams is zero.

[GAMBLER]

How has the drought affected the wild reproduction? The flow in many streams is zero.

It has not affected king natural reproduction yet since the fish hatched this summer are swimming around the lake.

[justtracytrolling]

Forget the science, logic would tell me if catch rates are increasing and size is decreasing that the bait population is not what it used to be. Although nice, regularly going out and catching 10-20 silvers in a morning is not indicative of a healthy system. Natural reproduction is a wild card in LO, but in reality is probably the only sure fire way to keep a healthy predator/prey balance in a perfect world. Stocking the same number of predators year after year regardless of conditions and prey abundance is anything but natural. Lower stocking numbers does not necessarily equate to lower catch rates if the predator prey relationship is in balance. Honestly, I like the approach the DEC is taking in trying maintain a trophy fishery. Following the prey hatch makes perfect sense to me…as long as they actually increase when the hatch is good.

The adjusting of stocking numbers to balance the predator prey relationship is an ideal approach...but the state has no idea how much bait there really is so it's junk science imo. I personally do not trust a word I hear from the DEC...they sell us BS at every opportunity just to shut us up

[Sk8man]

X2

[Sweet Caroline]

 

The adjusting of stocking numbers to balance the predator prey relationship is an ideal approach...but the state has no idea how much bait there really is so it's junk science imo. I personally do not trust a word I hear from the DEC...they sell us BS at every opportunity just to shut us up

 

I hear ya, but again, DEC findings aside, logic would tell me that higher catch rates and decreasing salmon size are not indicative of higher bait populations. We may see higher concentrations of bait in the more productive areas of the lake but overall abundance is most likely down.

[justtracytrolling]

I was under the impression from Paul's post that salmon size isn't down and didn't realize catch rates were way up suggesting fish are hungry...I'm basing my opinion solely on what I read from experienced captains which I feel can be trusted more than what the DEC says...and any cuts to king salmon stocking seems not in our best interest.

[Gill-T]

Justin, salmon fitness and alewife fitness as measured by "plumpness" (can't believe that is a term used) is excellent. Smaller salmon sizes is a result of having lived thru two harsh winters where feeding is suppressed (not due to a lack of bait). Again, there is no lack of bait in the lake NOW. The problem perceived is on the horizon with the hole in the alewife population. Again this is a temporary blip (unless that volcano erupts in Iceland and we will be ice fishing for salmon) that will probably go mostly unnoticed. We probably will end up with 38 lb salmon again at top of LOC. Extra 150,000-200,000 King salmon stockings have been planted numerous times in recent years by Canadians when bait levels have supported the increases (public is unaware of this fact) because neither side wants to ever have to destroy fish. If the DEC is worried about meeting egg quota, Andy Todd gets a phone call and the Canadians set aside extra stockers as contingency. Even if not needed, those fish usually get thrown into the Niagara. Therefore, raising stocking figures is not unprecedented. I am also a little leery their position but I looked across the table at the two fisheries managers and believed that THEY believe there is a problem that needs adjusting so I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt (until proven otherwise). With three of the most sophisticated research vessels at their disposal gathering data I now at least feel they have a better handle on things.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Gill-T

[Fat Trout]

I don't want cuts either.  But for those saying they won't raise stocking back.  I can at least point to the 1990's when they cut and then later raised the stocking.

 

BTW, feel free to send some bait east.  Its been hard to come by when I've been out in the Mexico Bay / Nine Mile Pt area.

[Rich s]

Well I can just say that after reading this discussion starting last year involving King davey and various experienced and fisherman alike , we all waited for the spring troll data .

That data came out and based on that data it seemed there was concern .

I have no reason not to discount the concern , at least from my view of struggling to catch fish compared to 10 years ago

Hope to hear a realistic plan come from this meeting

Rich

[rdebadts]

For what it's worth I emailed the head of the lake Ontario fishery about the bait situation. He got back to me very quickly with an incredibly detailed answer. I was very satisfied with what he had to say. From what I understand, they are trying to be proactive, which is not a bad thing. Before we all freak out, let's see what they actually are proposing.

In my personal face-to-face as well as email interactions with these guys, I have not had nothing but good experiences. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt

[RUNNIN REBEL]

First ,

Stocking  "zero "  lake trout this year and last year and next 2 years have little to no affect on the current concerns of pressure on the remaining (5 year Old class currently the oldest majority  in lake) and younger  alewife population. The concern is (assuming 2 more mild/short winters) the current breeding population needs to carry the entire hatches for 2017-2018. Until the missing 2 year classes of alewife work up and threw the system. Bait trawls measure length/weight and AGE alewife's, as few as a couple years ago we had common & abundant alewife's up to 9 years old in catches. So with 9 year classes of alewife's moving threw the system, and 1 severe winter was a non facture.(and happened frequently)

 

9 year classes in lake  -----with 1 bad winter == 1 year class low alewife population working threw system has little concern (common)

 

5 year classes in lake (coincidentally this is close Michigan numbers) ----- with 2 bad winters (back to back SEVERE/LONG winters) Unprecedented has not happened in recent times

Gives us the current concern for 2017-2018 hatches with 2 missing year classes out of only 5 classes in this years trawls are not good odds

 

Yes lake trout are on the cutting block discussion,

 

1  lake trout/ Atlantics & lamprey control are bonus Fed $$$$$ You don't send back a welfare check because you get a EBT card KEEP BOTH

******* NY State also wants a lake trout and Atlantic Salmon program also REGARDLESS of federal funding ****.

2  current lake trout abundance in lake (number they use to track lamprey stage #1hits per 100 lake trout is increasing BUT still at lower levels

3  When your marking bait (especially offshore) how many times does your rods fire with lake trout ?

And with everyone fishing 200 ft of water and less (LAKE TROUT country) with huge flashers for past months (before northeast blow) How many incidental  lake trout did you catch ?

4  Canadian waters (EXCEPTION: Niagara river to Hamilton) Lake trout year round pressure on alewife is low. It is mostly an inshore fishery with most bait locations 60 feet of water and less) and you can count on 1 hand how many Lake Trout caught there in YEARS .

5   Why are people who question Lake trout/Alewife pressure PROTECTING them ? EVERY tournament committee member/every tournament-derby fisherman-every charter business and rec. fisherman should not be making or agreeing too rules:

"no lake trout category in Fall L.O.C. derby"  OR  King of Oak Orchard changes rules to only 1 lake trout  OR    ALL Pro-Am tourney's limit 1 or 2 lake trout allowed in catch  OR EVERY other "SALMON ONLY" contest out there could have a 1 or 2 bonus Lake trout only addition.

 

 

Be proactive if you are truly concerned about Lake trout diets...................................................

 

Charter Capt. saying   "don't fish for lake trout if not necessary--YOU ARE ALOUD lake trout in your limits before-during and after you fish for silver fish.

 

ALL pro-am's should have a 5 point BONUS for every Lake trout entered in Tourny.

 

March/april/may large numbers and biggest congregation of breeder/feeding lake trout could be "thinned out" easily off Niagara river......

 

Not to mention the absolute best Lake trout waters in all Lake Ontario are between my kitchen table and my kid's swing set....I watch it everyday before and after I leave for work with few if anyone thinning them out........

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Edited August 11, 2016 by RUNNIN REBEL

[GAMBLER]

The adult laker population has been climbing for the past couple years even with stocking short falls recently.  This should be enough reason to support a laker cut along with the king cut they are proposing.  If they want to be proactive about the future of the fishery, the long living lake trout population needs to be cut.  If a stocking cut does not happen for lakers, the creel limit needs to be increased to knock the population down to save alewives. 

[Gill-T]

Proposal: Lake Trout Tournament in Niagara County at end of March.

[RUNNIN REBEL]

Gill that is thinking pro-active...why complain if you are NOT doing your part. These Tourny guy's on here are the same who LIMITED lake trout catches in their own derbies...............

 

Rich S ---Tall Tails,Brian and even Gill T Chad  continue questioning and observe as many e-mails/phone calls or in person meetings you can.

 

A-LURE-A            the size to length ratio and catch ratio is exactly how you see trouble, But they are lagging indicators. Plus there should be no problems this year . It is 2017-2018 where  concern is

 

Justin    Predator /prey ratio is the best way to TRY and balance mother nature 4 years down the road

Best ratio .05 predator /prey

Lake Huron was  .11 years before crash

Lake Michigan is .10

Lake Ontario we do not know

 

Abe-Rdebadts   I wish more people would interact with as many lake Ontario agencies as they can.

 

Brian/Gambler  We will see any stocking cuts returned. (After period of concern). I will be all over that at more Bi-national meetings than you could even guess

 

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Edited August 11, 2016 by RUNNIN REBEL

[Gill-T]

Could you imagine the mess at weigh-in??

[Sk8man]

Yeah the rush would be on the get them to weigh in before they lost the 10 lbs of crap

[KilliansRed]

Proposal: Lake Trout Tournament in Niagara County at end of March.

I'm absolutely in to fish that.

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

[RUNNIN REBEL]

Trust me... More people will be upset with a March or April Niagara Lake trout derby than with the DEC/FEDS not cutting lake trout stocking numbers.

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

 

 

Put Gambler with Gill-T now in the "positive forward column"

Edited August 11, 2016 by RUNNIN REBEL

[GAMBLER]

Proposal: Lake Trout Tournament in Niagara County at end of March.

May / June would be better because more boats are on the water.  I would be willing to sponsor a derby like this!  We could call it Alewives Lives Matter Derby!

[Sweet Caroline]

When I mention average size decline it is in reference to a slow and steady decline that we have seen over the last 10-15-20 years.  Reviewing the top fish in the leader boards of the LOC and Great Ontario Salmon Hunt paints a pretty clear picture. I’m certainly not complaining about the size of the 25-30lb fish that we are still getting with regularity now, just pointing out that the 35-40lb fish are rare nowadays compared to 10-15-20 years ago. Generally this is an indication of a decline in prey abundance and the higher catch rates only reinforce that assumption.

[Silver Fox]

It's also about the eggs collected. They should be taking eggs from the biggest fish.

Lake Ontario salmon fishing charters

[RUNNIN REBEL]

ALL GOOD POINTS....................Moving Forward>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Scott and Brian I hope to meet up with both of you tonight ???????

 

 

Jerry

 

RUNNIN REBEL

[GAMBLER]

When I mention average size decline it is in reference to a slow and steady decline that we have seen over the last 10-15-20 years.  Reviewing the top fish in the leader boards of the LOC and Great Ontario Salmon Hunt paints a pretty clear picture. I’m certainly not complaining about the size of the 25-30lb fish that we are still getting with regularity now, just pointing out that the 35-40lb fish are rare nowadays compared to 10-15-20 years ago. Generally this is an indication of a decline in prey abundance and the higher catch rates only reinforce that assumption.

Genetics play a huge role in fish size.  Most kings are spawning at 3 and 4 years old not 3 - 4 years old like they used to.  If they are taking eggs from 2 and 3 year olds and very few 4 year olds, is that affecting the fish size?

[GAMBLER]

ALL GOOD POINTS....................Moving Forward>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Scott and Brian I hope to meet up with both of you tonight ???????

 

 

Jerry

 

RUNNIN REBEL

Where?

[Gill-T]

May / June would be better because more boats are on the water.  I would be willing to sponsor a derby like this!  We could call it Alewives Lives Matter Derby!

Tournament conflicts start in May and you want to wack those big lakers to protect pen fish exiting their cages. This does not have to be a big boat tournament. I think it would appeal to every boat because there are so many lakers to catch, the average weekend warrior can compete against anyone (Mother Nature the exception)