Legacy -The 2023 Deer Season-

[Gill-T]

https://m.facebook.com/groups/220365061802020/permalink/1731101884061656/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v
 

[Legacy]

Well the muzzleloader drama continues...

I went and shot my CVA accura v2 a couple weeks ago and the results were terrible. (Let me just say that since I purchased this gun I have not been impressed).

To back up a bit.... last year I missed two bucks at 55 yards and thought it was an issue with the scope. A new scope was purchased and the gun seemed to shoot ok after that but not great. Fast forward to this year. My first shot out of the gun at the range this year was 12" high at 100 yards. After a couple dozen rounds and few different powder measurements I just gave up. 110 grains (volume) of black horn and Barnes spit fire tmz bullets are the combo that has been highly recommended to me and that's what I have tried to make work. However the gun continues to be terribly inconsistent. I contacted CVA and they requested that I ship the gun to them. I'm waiting to hear from them. I'm hoping they swap the barrel and ship it back to me but who knows.

Picture= the last three shots at the range that day. 100 yards from a lead sled.

 

[Gill-T]

You suck!

 

[Legacy]

With all the drama with my CVA accura v2 I decided to buy another gun while I wait for CVA to diagnose my gun issue. I purchased a new CVA Optima V2 with a nitride barrel (same gun as a accura v2 just current model). Today I did some bullet testing and in the end the new gun shot very good. Now that I have a clear winner with ammo I need to spend some time fine tuning.

So CVA recommends using ELR powerbelts and 120 grains (volume) of black horn . My three bullet combos that I shot were ELR powerbelts, Barnes spit fire tmz w/ standard yellow sabot, and Barnes spit fire with harvester ribbed sabots. The results in the end were no doubt in favor of the powerbelts even with making scope adjustments between shots. (6 round target =powerbelts and 4 round target is Barnes spit fire tmz). The shots using the harvester sabots never hit paper so I halted that experiment Immediately.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Frogger]

I couldn’t get a power belt to be consistent at all with my Accura, matter of fact they were the worst with BH. Put in some off the shelf Walmart traditions and were 1/2inch at 100 yds. 
thinking of drilling out the power belts and using them with some senkos for bass fishing……..

[Gill-T]

Send them to Rob, he loves to shoot. 

[Chromeslayer]

Powerbelt bullets are about the worse possible bullet to shoot in my opinion... 

[Hop]

I will agree with chrome slayer.  I shoot a savage with smokeless and the powerbelts produce fine accuracy but I have had dismal expansion results on 3 deer. I no longer use them. 

[Legacy]

I have never been a fan of powerbelts. But after a long series of conversations with CVA it is their recommended bullet when shooting blackhorn 209. Their bullet recommendations change with the powder type.

[Norm Moser]

Legacy, I have the same muzzleloader and had the same results. I went through $100s in powder and bullets in every combo with the same results as you I even put a different scope on it made sure every thing was tight and nothing changed. My Thompson pro hunter shoots 1 inch groups at 100 yards. I am interested in what CVA has to say with your gun when you send it back, maybe a bad run of guns who knows. I have been trying for a long time to get this thing to shoot and like you just gave up on it. I do agree what most people say about powerbelts and expansion being not good. by the why CVA  and Powerbelt are owned by the same company so no surprise  CVA would push powerbelt. When and if you get an answer let us know

[Legacy]

6 minutes ago, Norm Moser said:

Legacy, I have the same muzzleloader and had the same results. I went through $100s in powder and bullets in every combo with the same results as you I even put a different scope on it made sure every thing was tight and nothing changed. My Thompson pro hunter shoots 1 inch groups at 100 yards. I am interested in what CVA has to say with your gun when you send it back, maybe a bad run of guns who knows. I have been trying for a long time to get this thing to shoot and like you just gave up on it. I do agree what most people say about powerbelts and expansion being not good. by the why CVA  and Powerbelt are owned by the same company so no surprise  CVA would push powerbelt. When and if you get an answer let us know

 

Im curious too. I figure best case scenario is they install a new barrel and worst case they tell me everything is fine and ship it back to me. I have shot a bunch of different ammo out of it (with the blackhorn 209) and have not been impressed.

Correct powerbelt is owned by CVA and I actually doubted their suggestion at first because of it.

[Gator]

I've shot the Barnes SpitfireMZ with 110 grains BH209 for years with great accuracy and deadly results. Caveat here is that I'm not trying to group a round of six; I generally only shoot two and if they're both within an inch of center at 75 yards, I'm good.

 

On the other hand, I have a buddy who grabbed a CVA Accura LR (long range) and has had nothing but issues with it when shooting BH209. It appears to leave an oily residue in the barrel, and his groupings can only be called that in theory. Eventually, after a few shots, there would be a lag in firing, as if the powder was having trouble igniting, and yes he uses shotshell primers. He did install a muzzle break, which I've no experience using with MZ, and the BH209 was new from the factory, so it shouldn't be the power (but both bottles performed the same).

 

Eventually, he changed out the breech plug and moved back to Triple Seven. It does kinda negate the benefits of having the LR model, but at least he was able to dial it in. So, there's another example of an Accura with issues, though perhaps not quite the same? Unless Rob, were you observing an oily coating at the end of your barrel after shooting? Maybe there's something to this idea of a bad batch of guns.

[dvdegeorge]

TC Omega with BH 209 

[idn713]

I shoot the power belts and B209 in my paramount with the 285 ELR. 98 grains weighed and I’m cutting holes at 100. It’s never going to be bullet to bore, custom muzzleloader accurate but I believe the .45 cal ELRs perform just fine. Every deer I’ve killed with them is just as dead as my TC Omega deer and my Savage Smokeless deer. 
 

That said, I certainly would prefer to have some more bullet competition in the .45 space without having to smooth size my own bullets. 
 

Legacy sounds like he just got a bad product which is super time consuming and ultimately frustrating as all heck. 

[Chromeslayer]

17 minutes ago, idn713 said:

I shoot the power belts and B209 in my paramount with the 285 ELR. 98 grains weighed and I’m cutting holes at 100. It’s never going to be bullet to bore, custom muzzleloader accurate but I believe the .45 cal ELRs perform just fine. Every deer I’ve killed with them is just as dead as my TC Omega deer and my Savage Smokeless deer. 
 

That said, I certainly would prefer to have some more bullet competition in the .45 space without having to smooth size my own bullets. 
 

Legacy sounds like he just got a bad product which is super time consuming and ultimately frustrating as all heck. 

You can shoot the pittmans, furys, arrowhead xld, parkers, etc..... buy them in the 40 or 45cal (depending on what cal you plan on shooting them out of) version and put them in a sabot... theres lots of options just depends on how much work one wants to put into getting the best results possible... me personally if i had a gun that i could only get powerbelts to shoot out of it id sell the gun

[idn713]

1 hour ago, Chromeslayer said:

You can shoot the pittmans, furys, arrowhead xld, parkers, etc..... buy them in the 40 or 45cal (depending on what cal you plan on shooting them out of) version and put them in a sabot... theres lots of options just depends on how much work one wants to put into getting the best results possible... me personally if i had a gun that i could only get powerbelts to shoot out of it id sell the gun

Haven’t tried a whole heck of a lot just because I haven’t had to. The ELRs shoot great  ( for me) and smoke deer. I don’t feel the need to chase a ghost that isn’t there. That said, I certainly would go with the Fury 250 grain yellow tip if I was gonna smooth size. 
 

I just invested in a Woodman Patriot as well, to get back to mild smokeless loads. 

[machzrcr]

Decided to test my #s I  shot during the summer on the drop of my savage 220 today.  

These were the real life #s out of my gun with accutips. 

200 yds with 3" about 13" drop

250yds. 3". 20" drop 

200yds with 2 3/4. 20" drop

250yds with 2 3/4  30" drop  

 

I took a shot at a coyote at 250yds  today. (He was quartering away)  Knowing it was going to drop  20" aimed  high about a foot over the top of his head height figuring head is maybe 6",  so I let er eat and smoked him.  

[dvdegeorge]

16 hours ago, machzrcr said:

Decided to test my #s I  shot during the summer on the drop of my savage 220 today.  

These were the real life #s out of my gun with accutips. 

200 yds with 3" about 13" drop

250yds. 3". 20" drop 

200yds with 2 3/4. 20" drop

250yds with 2 3/4  30" drop  

 

I took a shot at a coyote at 250yds  today. (He was quartering away)  Knowing it was going to drop  20" aimed  high about a foot over the top of his head height figuring head is maybe 6",  so I let er eat and smoked him.  

I get same drop from my Tarhunt 20 ga 13" at 200yds

[dvdegeorge]

Anyone can hold for drop but the real voodoo is doping the wind a shot gun slug will drift way more than most realize in wind

[machzrcr]

1 hour ago, dvdegeorge said:

Anyone can hold for drop but the real voodoo is doping the wind a shot gun slug will drift way more than most realize in wind

You got to know the drop 1st!  Haha 

And ya my cousin and uncle do a lot of competition shooting out to 1000yds all summer I ask them drop info and I just get an answer in mils 🤣.   and so I'm gunna go with them and play with one of mine and see how it does!  

[Gill-T]

Fresh 

[dremarquis]

Rob,  I also shoot a CVA Optima V2 with a nitride barrel. I am shooting Barnest Spit Fire TMZs with 100 gr triple se7en and I'm getting golfballs at 100 yards.

At the risk of starting a controversy, I no longer clean my barrel like I used to. I followed some guys instructions about simply LICKING the patch and I have noticed my MZ shooting much better. Here are the instructions I follow, FWIW, and I feel awkward posting this because I know so many of you know more about these things than I do (but this has really been working for me):

This is taken from somewhere on the web, I can't remember who or where:

Here are the steps I follow in loading every shot, every season, every circumstance with all my muzzleloaders. Period.

1. After the shot, lick a clean, cotton patch. (yes, lick a patch; with your tongue) Place it wet side down on top of your barrel. Using your ramrod with a cleaning jag attached, work the patch in ever-lengthening strokes to the bottom of the barrel.

2. Remove the ramrod, flip the patch over and run the other side of the patch to the bottom of the barrel.

3. Remove the ramrod. Discard the patch.

4. Dump in the pre measured powder charge.

5. Seat the bullet until the powder stops compressing.

Done. Use this simple five step sequence every time you shoot and groups will shrink and velocities will stay constant, shot after shot. Using this method, I have shot my flintlock 100s of times without a full cleaning.

Here are some simple DON'Ts.

1. DON'T use any type of cleaner on the patch. Blackpowder and Pyrodex shoot much, much better on a fouled barrel than they shoot on a clean barrel. Using cleaner will remove the "first shot fouling". The "spit patch" will remove the excess fouling while leaving the "first shot fouling" on the barrel. Chronograph three - five shot strings with the same load. For the first string, do nothing between shots. For the second string, swab with a patch dampened with cleaner. For the third string, swab with a spit patch. You will be amazed at the results.

2. DON'T go hunting with a clean barrel. My best example of this is using Pyrodex RS on a clean barrel with a Knight Wolverine. The first shot out of a clean barrel can be as much as 6" out of the group at 100 yards. With that first fouling shot on the barrel, 1" groups are very common but on a clean barrel, that first shot can be anywhere in that 12" circle.

3. Always seat your bullet using a bullet starter that will not deform the end of the bullet. Deformed bullets may shoot fine at 50 yards but cannot fly the same over extended ranges due to variance in ballistic coefficiency.

[reeleyz]

12 hours ago, dremarquis said:

Rob,  I also shoot a CVA Optima V2 with a nitride barrel. I am shooting Barnest Spit Fire TMZs with 100 gr triple se7en and I'm getting golfballs at 100 yards.

At the risk of starting a controversy, I no longer clean my barrel like I used to. I followed some guys instructions about simply LICKING the patch and I have noticed my MZ shooting much better. Here are the instructions I follow, FWIW, and I feel awkward posting this because I know so many of you know more about these things than I do (but this has really been working for me):

This is taken from somewhere on the web, I can't remember who or where:

Here are the steps I follow in loading every shot, every season, every circumstance with all my muzzleloaders. Period.

1. After the shot, lick a clean, cotton patch. (yes, lick a patch; with your tongue) Place it wet side down on top of your barrel. Using your ramrod with a cleaning jag attached, work the patch in ever-lengthening strokes to the bottom of the barrel.

2. Remove the ramrod, flip the patch over and run the other side of the patch to the bottom of the barrel.

3. Remove the ramrod. Discard the patch.

4. Dump in the pre measured powder charge.

5. Seat the bullet until the powder stops compressing.

Done. Use this simple five step sequence every time you shoot and groups will shrink and velocities will stay constant, shot after shot. Using this method, I have shot my flintlock 100s of times without a full cleaning.

Here are some simple DON'Ts.

1. DON'T use any type of cleaner on the patch. Blackpowder and Pyrodex shoot much, much better on a fouled barrel than they shoot on a clean barrel. Using cleaner will remove the "first shot fouling". The "spit patch" will remove the excess fouling while leaving the "first shot fouling" on the barrel. Chronograph three - five shot strings with the same load. For the first string, do nothing between shots. For the second string, swab with a patch dampened with cleaner. For the third string, swab with a spit patch. You will be amazed at the results.

2. DON'T go hunting with a clean barrel. My best example of this is using Pyrodex RS on a clean barrel with a Knight Wolverine. The first shot out of a clean barrel can be as much as 6" out of the group at 100 yards. With that first fouling shot on the barrel, 1" groups are very common but on a clean barrel, that first shot can be anywhere in that 12" circle.

3. Always seat your bullet using a bullet starter that will not deform the end of the bullet. Deformed bullets may shoot fine at 50 yards but cannot fly the same over extended ranges due to variance in ballistic coefficiency.

 

I use the same spit patch procedure and it works great for me. If I shoot my CVA on a clean barrel the first shot is always quite a ways off. Not sure it was ever a foot off though.

 

I run BH209 and Barnes or THOR (for out west, made by Barnes) bullets.

[Legacy]

[Legacy]

Good luck to everyone as the late season begins. Remember all tags are valid.