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Sportfishing

2012 Orleans County Pro-Am Facts

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2012 Orleans County Pro-Am Facts

The 2012 Orleans County Pro-Am was held on June 9 & 10. As you know, this year’s event had several rule/format changes. It is believed some participants from previous years decided to not enter this year’s event, preferring to “wait and see†how the new rule/format changes would impact the results of the tournament.

By communicating the following facts, we hope to help you see that this year’s changes along with the increased fund raising and prize donations combined to make 2012 our County’s most successful tournament so far. Here are a few facts we’d like to share:

• The total payout in cash and prizes was $39,680.

• 32 Trophy/Classic Division entries shared $30,000 with an average per team payout of $937.50. Another way to look at this is that 62.5% of the Trophy/Classic Divisions teams received checks. Here is a detailed breakdown:

Individual checks paid to Trophy/Classic Division teams:

$3,700 $1,185

$3,400 $1,175

$3,050 $ 970

$2,450 $ 950

$2,450 $ 775

$2,120 $ 300

$1,960 $ 250

$1,800 $ 250

$1,435 $ 250

$1,260 $ 250

• 16 Open Division entries (Saturday) and 18 Open Division entries (Sunday) shared $9,680 in checks and merchandise with an average per team payout of $290.00. Another way to look at this is that 41% of the Open Division teams received checks.

Individual checks/merchandise paid to Trophy/Classic Division teams:

$825 +$770 in merchandise

$625 +$720 in merchandise

$500 +$390 in merchandise

$475 +$325 in merchandise

$425 +$220 in merchandise

$425 +$325 in merchandise

$375 +$220 in merchandise

$325 +$200 in merchandise

$275 +$200 in merchandise

$630 in merchandise

$420 in merchandise

If there is additional information you would like to know or feedback you would like to share, please post your comments and we will address them.

Sincerely,

Mike Waterhouse

Orleans County Pro-Am Director

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Up until now I have taken the position of keeping my mouth shut regarding the Pro-Am since the only one I fish is the Orleans. Being one of the directors of the Sandy Creek Shootout I know how hard it is to pull off a fishing tournament, and the sting of hearing negative criticism that comes along with it at times. That being said, I think the Orleans committee needs to look at a couple of things related to the open division. First, come up with a better scoreboard. As a participant in the open division I felt like my team and all the other open teams were kind of the outcast. Pros get a nice computer score sheet projected on a big screen. Open guys get a 2 x 3 foot dry erase board and a red marker. Second, the awards for the open division need to be presented much earlier. The consistent talk among the Open guys was "why do we have to wait 3 hours to get our awards". Our team agreed. We had finished in money, but it was to long of a wait to get our award. I know at least one other open team winner that left early as well. Most of the open guys aren't docked for the weekend in the creek. They trailered to the launch, they have to trailer back home that day. They may only be fishing one day because they have family commitments that afternoon/evening. A better effort to recognize the open division guys and get them their awards early would be nice.

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Just a reminder that it costs a lot more to enter the pro division. Therefore it deserves a better scoreboard. I believe it also has a lot.more participants. When you enter the open division you do so knowing that it's kinda the "minor league" of the event. Ive fished the opens and i guess if i wouldnt expect to have the same amenities the pros do. Just my opinion

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Well, yes and no. If the open division is intended to be a breeding ground for future pro am participants, I'm not so sure treating them like a red headed stepchild is the best way to foster that interest.

Tim

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Mike, thank you for your hard work. I know it's really not your place or problem, but many people are interested in knowing if the series is going to continue with the Eastern events. Will the 4 Tournament series continue? There are several threads going unanswered on here, some looking for results, others looking for info on 2013 events. I tried to get it rolling with a meeting in August in Oswego, but thus far haven't heard anything as to dates or if the Eastern events will continue. It was hoped that they would all take on a local "ownership", and some of the unpopular rules revisited for the survival of the series.

As was expressed all last winter, and again here in some threads, dates and formats need to be offered by year end so people can plan accordingly. Thanks again.

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So you think triple A baseball should only play in major league stadiums? Its a stepping stone for those who cant commit the time., and money.

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So you think triple A baseball should only play in major league stadiums? Its a stepping stone for those who cant commit the time., and money.

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No but the minor league stadiums have seats, luxury boxes, food vendors, cost a lot less to enter, and the players are not premaddonnas like you have in the majors. You are not treated (as a fan) like a second rate group of fans. If they already use the computer for the pros, there is no excuse why they can not make another spread sheet on excel and use it for the Open. It is just pure lazyness. If you want to draw people to enter the pro ams, treat the stepping stone well. If people get a bad taste in there mouth at the stepping stone level, they are sure as heck not going to make the splash to go to the Pro Division.

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Thanks Vince, I've been trying to get a breakdown of each port as far as who placed where and the prize they won as far as cash and prizes. Pro AND Open. If folks can't see what the cash & prizes are how are they gonna take an interest in entering. JMHO :(

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Why does everyone hate the open division so much? I don't feel like I am alone in my feelings that it is basically the am division now.... Sorry that I didn't want to front 3x as much money to get beat up on by charters, with 2 different crews for each day and no prefishing time because I work full time! Call me minor league, that's fine. But if you hope to keep these things going ams are where you will have to look, because there are only a finite number of charters or dedicated ams.... If/when I win a tourney I will be glad to be "forced" to move up

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LS, I'm not sure why your so defensive of keeping the Open guys down. In 2011, only 7 out of the 63 boats entered in the Orleans Pro Am were in the open division. With that number I can see why the Open division was treated as the "minor league". In 2012, 17 out of the 49 boats entered were in the Open division. With the new Pro-Am structure the Open division is going to bigger, while the Open may still be the "minor leagues", treating those competitors with less importance and indifference I think is a bad idea for the Pro-Ams.

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I am not defensive about it. Anyone knows me knows i havent fished a pro div in years and have fished the open a lot more. I prefer the open. I just want the complainers to realize they are paying a 1/3 less money to enter. Like anything else in life, you get what you pay for. When i enter opens, i understand its the back burner division. Im.not going to worry about a damn scoreboard. You want to feel like a superstar? Then buck up and compete with them, otherwise just realize the committee is doing their best.

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I am all for the improvements fellas. I think we just have to keep it relative

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I am all for the improvements fellas. I think we just have to keep it relative

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Asking for a better scorebaord is not asking for much. A simple excel spread sheet on the computer will not cost anything (since the pro division is already on computer). It takes a couple miuntes to set up.

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2012 Orleans county facts,

I did a little research on the Orleans Pro/Am from 2011 & 2012 Team Tournament(don't say Pro/Am cause that bird has flown the coop). Here are some facts I noticed. As you can see by the payouts listed more teams made more money than ever before. Way higher entry fees and less competitors will do that for you. One of the points of the series was to grow the tournaments. That has not happened by a long shot. Here are some other facts about the Orleans Team Tournament compared to the 2011 results.The numbers are pulled from the Team Tournament website. For the Open division I counted the number of different teams entered,so if you entered both days your team was counted as 1.

2011 Orleans

Am Teams-16

Pro Teams-40

Open- 8

Total- 64 teams

2012 Orleans

Am teams-0

Pro- 32

Open- 11

Total-43 teams

A drop in participation of 33%.

Using the above calculations you can plainly see the level of participants has dropped significantly. Is this what was envisioned when the new format was put together. The same formula can be used for the Niagara and Oswego tournaments with similar results (Niagara 21% drop) Oswego(25% drop). All you keep hearing is "X" amount of teams received a check. It's even hard to tell who won what. Ask anybody that followed or participated in the old Pro/Ams if they remember who won in years past. I am sure a majority would be able to name teams both Pro and Am from years gone by. Try that now,you can look at the score sheets and still not know. There used to be such a sense of pride and accomplishment when competing and doing well in the old series. That has completely vanished and now as you can see by whats being posted,its all about the money. Now it's everybody wins and look at all the checks we paid out. Maybe sometimes keeping things the same could be a better option. All I know is in any business or work situation, a 33% drop in sales,production,marketshare, ect is not sustainable. The question I have is, are the Salmon Team Tournaments sustainable if the levels listed above are now the norm? I guess time and the organizers of the tournaments will have the final say. The sponsors of the Tournaments have a vested interest, they want exposure and to drive sales of the products and services they offer. Less teams equal less exposure which in turn equals less sales. Why would they continue their support when advertising and promotional dollars could be spent much more effectively elsewhere.?That's some simple math everyone can understand. I believe the tournamnets are at a "fork" in the road,which way are they gonna turn. Stayed tuned!

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I am all for the improvements fellas. I think we just have to keep it relative

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Asking for a better scorebaord is not asking for much. A simple excel spread sheet on the computer will not cost anything (since the pro division is already on computer). It takes a couple miuntes to set up.

Maybe offer to help them

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2012 Orleans county facts,

I did a little research on the Orleans Pro/Am from 2011 & 2012 Team Tournament(don't say Pro/Am cause that bird has flown the coop). Here are some facts I noticed. As you can see by the payouts listed more teams made more money than ever before. Way higher entry fees and less competitors will do that for you. One of the points of the series was to grow the tournaments. That has not happened by a long shot. Here are some other facts about the Orleans Team Tournament compared to the 2011 results.The numbers are pulled from the Team Tournament website. For the Open division I counted the number of different teams entered,so if you entered both days your team was counted as 1.

2011 Orleans

Am Teams-16

Pro Teams-40

Open- 8

Total- 64 teams

2012 Orleans

Am teams-0

Pro- 32

Open- 11

Total-43 teams

A drop in participation of 33%.

Using the above calculations you can plainly see the level of participants has dropped significantly. Is this what was envisioned when the new format was put together. The same formula can be used for the Niagara and Oswego tournaments with similar results (Niagara 21% drop) Oswego(25% drop). All you keep hearing is "X" amount of teams received a check. It's even hard to tell who won what. Ask anybody that followed or participated in the old Pro/Ams if they remember who won in years past. I am sure a majority would be able to name teams both Pro and Am from years gone by. Try that now,you can look at the score sheets and still not know. There used to be such a sense of pride and accomplishment when competing and doing well in the old series. That has completely vanished and now as you can see by whats being posted,its all about the money. Now it's everybody wins and look at all the checks we paid out. Maybe sometimes keeping things the same could be a better option. All I know is in any business or work situation, a 33% drop in sales,production,marketshare, ect is not sustainable. The question I have is, are the Salmon Team Tournaments sustainable if the levels listed above are now the norm? I guess time and the organizers of the tournaments will have the final say. The sponsors of the Tournaments have a vested interest, they want exposure and to drive sales of the products and services they offer. Less teams equal less exposure which in turn equals less sales. Why would they continue their support when advertising and promotional dollars could be spent much more effectively elsewhere.?That's some simple math everyone can understand. I believe the tournamnets are at a "fork" in the road,which way are they gonna turn. Stayed tuned!

Now that's a good post!

There used to be such a sense of pride and accomplishment when competing and doing well in the old series. That has completely vanished

The best part!

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Right on the mark... Fishfighter and Yankee!

My exact thoughts when the new plan was rolled out and still my thoughts after competing in the Orleans this year. Bring back the old and provide a two day tournament that actually separates the men from the boys. Spreading the wealth thru a socialist agenda is poor economic policy and becomes worse when applied to a fishing event that waters down the competitive juices. The original intentions of these events were to be a two day tournament, the big dog was the team that strung together two days of solid fishing to win the crown... Day one was a prelude to Day two, could #1 hold on or not? The answer has virtually always been no and that's the beauty of the two day event. This tournament series must go back to differentiating itself itself from single day events or it will fail next year.

Respectfully submitted to the many organizers that have devoted countless hours to planning these events and placed themselves in line for this scrutiny.

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I like the short box long box deal, but i think it should be a 2 day total not the day one day two thing with a ton of checks being given out, as goes for the open too , i was there for 2012 and won day one (open) and scored a spot out of the money on day two and with the points added up we would of took the over all, but it ment nothing and for 2 days of hard running like that just don't seem worth it we would end up braking even after entrance fees and costs, don't get me wrong something is better than nothing but the prestige & showiness just isn't there for the top dogs of the event weather they be pro or am or open , speading the money was a great idea but i think they just went a little over bourd with it is all and from my eyes it wasnt worth going too the west end too fish the opens becouse i would of atleast had to win one of the days to just cover cost, i hope know one take's my post in the wrong way,i just think there just needs too be some small tweaks too the format is all and if it is sorted out buy january i will work on putting a pro div. team together

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As far as the scoreboard for the Open Division goes, it should be better. The problem was that we were working with not one but two new scoring systems. The one that was used to display the scores on the monitors did not have the capabilities to display the Open Division. As a matter of fact that system did not have the Open Division built into it at all. As of this date there has been no discussion by the directors, or by any other formal group that I am aware of, as to any changes to the format.

In reading some of the posts, there are some ideas presented that merit consideration and then there are others. As Vince pointed out, as of today there are two Pro-Ams that have selected their 2013 dates. I hope that over the next few months many issues can be resolved and the focus can be put on making the 2013 Pro-Am Series the best yet.

One final comment. The fact the entries were down for 2012 cannot be explained away simply by saying it was the rules change. I'm sure that gas prices, job security and many other factors influnced the entries.

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My $.02

I attended the last "Pro/Am" meeting as Vince has noted on August 9th

Since that time from what little I have heard, it has all been on the back burner concerning East and West events

From that last meeting I can add this:

There is a strong sense of moving on with the West end 2 events at the pace it left off on from 2012, meaning at that meeting they were looking at carrying on with what was in place in 2012 for 2013, (this is my opinion from attending the meeting) there were claims from the "Head Boss" that he firmly felt those willing to continue participating in the future of the West end Pro/Am's were pretty much happy with a majority of the existing rules (the same rules that 95% of those attending the meeting had felt otherwise about) to top the content/namely the existing communication rule. According to those attending whom were all past or present players 95% of which clearly made their opinions known, and at the forefront of that topic was a feeling of the "eastern end events demise" being blamed on the non-workable rule structure from about 2007 to 2012.

Recap:

West end events to carry on as they were in 2012 for 2013 (unless a very quiet word has formulated and are predicting otherwise)

East end events as Vince noted sit idle awaiting to be picked up by any entity willing to shoulder a "once awesome prestigious series of events" that has been weighted down by rules the players seemed to not be all that happy with.

(Note: Some of the 2012 Committee members who are from the east end did show interest in taking over the east end events, at that time showing strong interest, guess we will see) it is again my opinion that the consensus of majority of those who were there that night were in agreement that the east end events would favor starting a "new" Pro/Am in relation to where the Pro/Am's left off back when the interest was the strongest IE: Just a Pro, an Am, an observer and No Communication

Also as far as moving on with those who did show interest in taking over the east end, this time of year happens to be super busy till about 12/1, so I wouldn't expect anything soon, again JMO

Tom

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Mike, Thank You Very Much for your time in posting the valuable info that you have.

The fact the entries were down for 2012 cannot be explained away simply by saying it was the rules change. I'm sure that gas prices, job security and many other factors influnced the entries.

I also agree with this statement, just wanted to note that, however....

When you find yourself in a time that the above info concerning "economy in general" is true, wouldn't you feel that honoring a "majorities choice from those left" would be in the best interest of all: Players, sponsors, helping committee members, chambers, local businesses, etc etc etc? You are correct in your assumption in my opinion, but to add to the bleeding by trying to buck the players left, especially in a time like noted, doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

Many of whom even reached out to a great degree for the hope to "continue to play" in the manner they once had

Seems from those we have left, they are more than willing to "buck the times" to play the game, make it a possible win win and hey you never know..........

Jus sayin'

Tom

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Tom, you have proven you can run a tournament......any chance you could follow Kevin Jerge's lead with the KOTL and run the eastern events the way the majority want?

:yes::yes:

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Keith, maybe since our Sandy Creek Shootout is only a $100 entry fee, we should get rid of the spread sheet and go to crayons. Nice logic landshark.

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Keith, maybe since our Sandy Creek Shootout is only a $100 entry fee, we should get rid of the spread sheet and go to crayons. Nice logic landshark.

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If you need some Scott, my son perfers markers so I have some just laying around! :lol:

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One final comment. The fact the entries were down for 2012 cannot be explained away simply by saying it was the rules change. I'm sure that gas prices, job security and many other factors influnced the entries.

I will have to disagree with that statement. 2009 saw one of the worst economic downturns in American history,rivaling the financial collapse of the great depression. Yet the 2009 Orleans Pro/Am saw 57 boats compete. In 2010 again with the economy still struggling the tournament was able to draw 62 different teams combined Pro/AM/Open. That sounds pretty consistent to me. As I stated before the 2011 numbers were again in line with prior years. So, the last 3 years participation remained a model of consistency, to state that rules changes and entry fee structure were not the driving factor on participation is short sighted in my opinion. Are you trying to say the economy is worse now than it was in 2009,2010 or 2011? Statistic's say it is not. How about this, call some of the former teams that competed in the prior years and ask them why they did not compete in 2012. I would think that would make it crystal clear. I know the tournament organizers have a thankless job at times, plus they have incentive to see the changes they have made work. So defending those changes when they have appeared to not work can be a tough pill to swallow. No set of rules and entry fee structure is going make everyone happy. But taking into account the feelings of the particpants themselves is what is going to make the tournaments viable well into the future. Because, no matter if it is an economic upturn or downturn as you can plainly see by past results, if you always keep the teams participants in the forefront you will have a tournament series that will always draw. I think tournament organizers may have forgot that ,just like any business,the teams that participate are their customer's. So, how have you treated your customer's lately?

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